parents à identifier

.......

salut
pour ma part ce sont des ibera

Groupe ibera sans conteste, mais vraiment ce sont des tortues peu communes.
Le mâle a l'air très petit, la dossière très jaune, ca pourrait être un taxon d'ibera très particulier.
Peux tu nous en dire plus sur leur provenance Asson ? Se sont ils toujours suivi ou alors as tu eu les 2 par des voies différentes ? Enfin se reproduisent ils et ont ils une descendance uniforme ?

Bonjour Biodiv,
ils se sont toujours suivis effectivement, ils ont une grande descendance que j'ai vue aujourd'hui .
Les "enfants" sont beaucoup plus "kaki" mais ce sont bien les leurs, il n'y a qu'un couple adulte.L'âge n'est pas connu.
Est ce que tu as d'autres précisions?

ibera
idem

..........

La dossière très jaune du mâle est vraiment surprenante, c'est la première fois que je vois une ibéra comme ça! En plus il est un peu petit, effectivement. Je me demande s'il ne serait pas une graeca ...

je pense aussi
c'est a ne rien comprendre car je trouve leurs descendants vraiment vraiment trés trés clairs
grande possibilité d'avoir des hybrides sous nos yeux!!!(mais bon c'est pas trop trop grave si c'en est !!)


bizarre bizarre
si c'était possible d'avoir d'autres photos de cette fameuse descendance

chélo

Non non c'est un bon taxon, sans aucun problème.
Regardez les lignes des plastrons, en particulier au niveau de l'espace interpectoral : il n'y a aucun doute, le mâle et la femelle sont d'une même souche d'un même taxon d'ibera, mais probablement quelque chose de très peu courant à rechercher vers le Caucase !

Si l'heureux propriétaire du couple et de sa nombreuse descendance veut bien céder quelques jeunes, je serai très heureux que tu me joignes par mp Asson. Il faut à tout prix conserver cette souche ! On est un peu comme dans le cas des parents de ce que j'appelle Testudo graeca morphotype de l'Oranais dans le post it sur les Tgg : on a un couple, un seul, qui depuis 40 ans est ensemble, et a fait plein de bb . Un petit point supplémentaire néanmoins : on connaît exactement leur provenance, puisqu'ils ont été collectés dans la nature en 1962 !

merci à tous d'avoir pris le temps de les identifier,
même si les avis divergent.. .

J'espere que tu parle l'anglais

In search of little-known tortoises in southern Turkey.

A C Highfield

This author has previously reported upon the appearance, behaviour and distribution of the 'normal' Turkish tortoise of the Spur-thighed complex Testudo (graeca) ibera PALLAS 1814 (Highfield, 1992 and 1993). Subsequently, it was decided to undertake a further two expeditions to Turkey with the objective of resolving certain taxonomic problems posed by earlier publications. During the four expeditions now completed, some 275 individual animals were photographed, measured and recorded. There were two specific problems which our investigations hoped to resolve;

1. The alleged occurrence of Testudo (graeca) terrestris FORSKAL 1775 in Turkey

There have, in recent years, been a number of published reports identifying tortoises in the extreme South of Turkey as belonging to the alleged subspecies 'Testudo graeca terrestris'. For more on the unusual systematic and nomenclatural problems posed by this alleged taxon see this writer's comments published elsewhere under 'Testudo graeca'. In the present context it should be noted that the criteria employed by the various authors assigning Southern Turkish tortoises to it may be summarised as follows;

The S. Turkish tortoises are alleged to possess unusually light or yellowish carapaces; These tortoises are also said to possess yellowish skin and feature a yellow head 'mask'; The same tortoises are also said to be somewhat smaller than is normal for Testudo ibera as found in the Northern and Central parts of Turkey.

The taxonomic significance of these particular characters can, of course, be argued. Numerous tortoises in North Africa, Southern Turkey/Syria, Libya, Lebanon and Israel are relatively small, possess bright yellow head "masks" and have pale to bright yellow carapaces. These include both 'true' Testudo graeca graeca in Morocco, Algeria and Spain and the Testudo ibera related tortoises as discussed here. Insofar as "Testudo graeca terrestris" is concerned this is a proposed sub-species I do not and never have recognised and is one that I consider to be erected upon extremely shaky foundations indeed. Contrary to what is reported in John Iverson's "Check-list with Distribution Maps of Turtles of the World" (1992) I most certainly have not at any time suggested that "the currently accepted subspecies... terrestris should be elevated to full species". Quite the reverse. I am on record, clearly and unequivocally as suggesting that it is confused, ill-defined and on the present evidence does not deserve any kind of recognition - certainly under that nomenclature.
Nonetheless the various published accounts (Eiselt & Spitzenberger, 1967; Basoglu & Baran, 1977;Herrn, 1966) of these unusually coloured tortoises in Turkey have proved a source of much confusion and controversy among 'graeca' researchers with no seeming resolution in sight. The situation was not helped by a lack of published high quality photographs of the tortoises in question. It was partly with the objective of obtaining such photographs and of examining these tortoises in the field that in September 1993 I made my way to Antakya (the ancient city of Antioch) to begin my search for these Turkish 'terrestris'.
The tortoises at first proved elusive. Many of the sites mentioned by earlier authors are now so developed and degraded that the presence of tortoises seemed highly unlikely. One site, Samandag beach, mentioned by J. Eiselt and F. Spitzenberger in their 1967 report, now turned out to resemble nothing so much as a rubbish tip surrounded by scruffy concrete blockhouses. Youths on motor cycles tore up and down it in rapid succession - and I feared not only for any surviving tortoises but also for the marine turtles said by some locals still to frequent the beach on rare occasions. The sand-dunes mentioned by these earlier authors were almost destroyed and contaminated by large quantities of effluent and litter. After a fruitless day searching this depressing site our hopes of finding these mysterious tortoises were becoming ever dimmer.
The intense heat of September did not make the search any easier - any sensible tortoise would undoubtedly be in retreat. So it proved for 2 days of unproductive searching. However, on the third day our luck began to change and we found the carapace of a recently deceased juvenile tortoise in a deserted olive terrace some distance along the well-cultivated Samandag valley. Close examination revealed this to be identical to similar sized carapaces found in other locations in Turkey. It was slightly (no more than that) lighter in colour than normal for Testudo ibera, but was otherwise unremarkable. Its presence did however confirm that tortoises were to be found in the locality. An intensification of the search for the rest of that day failed to reveal any further evidence, however.
The following morning the search was resumed. The day was considerably cooler and slightly overcast. At approximately 11am the skies opened for a rare (and welcome) downpour that lasted for barely 15 minutes. The rain had an immediate effect upon the reclusive tortoises however, who evidently found the downpour as welcome as we humans, for in the next hour no less than 6 specimens were found in the same locality that had earlier produced the juvenile carapace.

The most immediately striking feature of these animals was their bright yellow head colouring. The carapace and plastral colouration were much more variable, with one male in particular exhibiting a high degree of melanism. All the tortoises however, displayed distinctly yellower head and limb colouration than is typical of 'normal' ibera. One very significant fact quickly emerged from my examination: these tortoises were in no way similar to comparably coloured North African tortoises. They share the yellow head and limb colouration, but that is all. In other respects, their structural morphology was undoubtedly that of Testudo ibera and not that of the North African 'graeca' complex. This has important implications for their nomenclatural status, as the alleged 'terrestris' race is also supposed to occur in Libya in North Africa and in Israel. The tortoises I was examining in Southern Turkey were far removed morphologically from anything to be found in Africa but were, apart from their reduced size and yellow colouring, otherwise identical to the ibera inhabiting the rest of Turkey. To attempt a written differentiation that would prove truly meaningful would be a difficult task; the differences are principally those of colouration and size alone and this is best conveyed by illustration. Certainly, I could determine no physical characteristic other than colouration or size that seemed to me to be of potential taxonomic significance or which separated them from 'normal' T. ibera as found elsewhere in Turkey. As a final observation, the last female located (specimen F3 ) possessed a divided supracaudal shield.
My tentative conclusion is that this region sustains a population of tortoises that are differentiated from the typical ibera of the region at large if - and this is a fairly significant 'if' - one accepts that sharply defined regional colour characteristics are sufficient to warrant separate taxonomic recognition in tortoises. If one does accept this criterion, then these Southern Turkish tortoises should be admitted as a subspecies. They would not, however, in my opinion be a subspecies of North African 'graeca', but rather a geographical race or subspecies of Testudo ibera. For reasons stated elsewhere, neither should they be burdened with that universally confused and ill-defined name 'terrestris'.
Basoglu and Baran (1977) have also suggested that intergrades between T. (g). ibera and the alleged T. (g). terrestris race occur in Turkey. In the summer of 1992 I examined tortoises at one site where these supposed intergrades occur, the coastal town of Kas. Investigations at that site revealed nothing remarkable. It should be noted that Kas is several hundred kilometres from the Southern area discussed previously, where the yellow coloured tortoises alleged to be "terrestris" do occur. This only reinforces the conclusion that Basoglu and Baran (1977) were mistaken in their conclusion that intergrades are present in this locality.

MERCI BEAUCOUP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C'est vraiment sympa d'avoir pris le temps de me répondre avec tant de précisions.

Je suis ravie .
Bonne journée.

En tout cas, asson , rien à dire, tes photos sont superbes!

J'y pense Tangerine, si tu pouvais faire une traduction de ce texte parce que euh ... tout le monde ne le lit pas ...

Oui mais pas avant une quinzaine ......

Tangerine t'es géniale!!

Vivement une superbe traduction!!

bonsoir,

"yahou groupes : tortues" m'a également confirmé 2 ibéra pour ce couple, j'avais demandé l'identification il y longtemps et elle est arrivée .

Biodiv a donc vu très juste et je rajoute ce post pour tous ceux qui auraient des tortues de petites régions bien spécifiques commes celles ci par exemple et qui n'arriveraient pas à les identifier. ( c'est le petit mâle jaune qui posait problème et pourtant c'est un ibéra). Si l'un d'entre vous a également un couple, pensons aux échanges pour sauver cette souche.

........

J'en profite pour rappeler à Tangerine la traduction, je lui envoie un mp (on n'est pas syma tout de même mais c'est notre seule parfaitement bilingue ).

Pour les ibera, je vais essayer de compléter la gallerie. A terme il faut aussi qu'on dispose des poids et taille, voir si ca doit nous orienter pour distinguer des groupes ou s'il faut considérer que la quasi totalité des ibera présentes en France, y compris quand elles ont un morphotype un peu spécial comme ce mâle, peuvent être toutes reproduites entre elles !

Merci en tout cas Asson du suivi du post !

Bon j'ai compris, prochaine visite avec pèse tortue sous le bras !

Tu me prêteras ton pèse-tortue spécial :mrgreen: !

Sinon Asson, regarde la gallerie ibera, où je vais ajouter tes photos : il y a une femelle claire également (ave un mâle sombre), et un autre mâle très clair.
Y a pas à dire, ces galleries nous permettent de chouettes vues d'ensemble .

oui ! la femelle de thom49 est super je l'ai contacté mais sa descendence est toute jeune . L'autre tortue c'est celle de Tangerine ?je ne vois pas bien la couleur de celle ci sur mon ordi .

pour le pèse tortue c'est ok !